Transcript from Focus Group Discussion
October 29, 2019
2:00 PM – 4:00 PM
Location: Social Hall in Kibera
Participants: 3 men and 2 women who reside in Kibera and have regularly participated (as both subjects and also enumerators) in various research projects; 1 discussion facilitator
Discussion conducted in English with occasional Swahili words.
Angela Okune 0:00
Oh let's see, haiya, karibu I don't know if you want to also come close so you can reach the muffins [giggles] here. Okay? Okay. Right so maybe we can now begin with the names. I've said my name, MK-KM-S-08, you can begin with your other name and any research you have participated in. I don't know MK-KM-S-08, maybe you've also... have you participated? [he laughs]
Ama you are always the organizer? [Laughs]
Maybe. My name is [anonymized]. I work with [redacted]. I have participated in several researches, but I can't remember all of them. There was one particular one called kindness, we were researching about if Kibera is a kind place or not. Yeah so that's the one I can mention for now.
John Paul 0:59
yes, my names are John Paul. Basically, I think we share the same common ground with MK-KM-S-08. The recent which I can talk about is the kindness in Kibera, yes that is the one I can remember.
Diana Mueni 1:20
I'm Diana Mueni. I've done so many but recently food survey with akina MK-KM-S-08.
Douglas Mamale 1:36
Am Douglas Mamale. I have done so many but the most recent one is a baseline survey I did in partnership with Maseno University.
Micera Wanjiru 2:01
I am Micera, Actually SDI and from Young Women's Initiative. And I have participated in several several researches and last month we were doing a survey on food vendors. Then now we have done a survey on houses in Mukuru, we've also done something on health and garbage. Yup. So and the garbage stuff we did with MK-KM-S-08.
Micera Wanjiru 2:44
the one, on the garbage, how much garbage is collected.
Angela Okune 2:52
And most of these it sounds like you guys have been running them yourselves. Like you're the one going out and doing the research. Have you also been... researchers have come to you and asked you questions? [All laugh]
Micera Wanjiru 3:05
Yes, there are so many of them!
Douglas Mamale 3:08
So many and I have just discovered that my name has been used in so many publications.
Angela Okune 3:18
Ah? Your names?
Douglas Mamale 3:19
Yeah, my names. I think in more than 15 different publications.
Angela Okune 3:25
15? Woah! Those are many!
Douglas Mamale 3:31
The only one that I think was quite (inaudible) cautious enough was a paper done by World Bank. That one mentioned my name... (inaudible)
Angela Okune 3:53
as like a thank you?
Douglas Mamale 3:54
Angela Okune 3:56
So how does that make you feel? To see your name? You feel famous or you feel used? [all laugh]
Micera Wanjiru 4:01
[Lots of murmuring] No, it's not the famous one... [all laugh].
Douglas Mamale 4:03
Ok, you know, based on the many I've seen, that one was the most honest. The most honest. Yes. (inaudible). Because I've participated in many others and you even don't know where the figures are or how the data looks like and all that. And you don't even know the value of all of this. So sometimes, if somebody calls and tells you they also want to talk to you... unaelewa (Swahili: you understand?) you are like, ok, another one? [all murmur in agreement, laugh].
Micera Wanjiru 4:37
I think when you find - like I was reading a certain report it is not yet released and i saw my photo there - and I'm like, now you haven't told me that I'm in your report. But anyway. There's that feeling of ok this is good, you're making me famous but again on the other side, you are famous with nothing.
Ai! With nothing! That is your view?
Yes, that is my view. Because when you participate in so many things and you don't know what is happening and it's not changing where the environment that we are in, you feel like wasted. You keep on asking questions, but this data will go...? The one who takes data will never come back to us like okay, we took this and these are the results. So you feel wasted.
Angela Okune 5:53
Has anybody ever come back to you with the results? or how did you find your photo? How did you find your name?
Male Respondent 6:01
The book was published.
Angela Okune 6:03
Male Respondent 6:08
The book was published online. They told me you can find this in a specific publication but its online, and it has been published by a specific company and one kept. (Inaudible Statement)
Angela Okune 6:46
And you would want your name to stay there or you want to see your name removed?
Male Respondent 6:49
I don't know you see it depends on who is this(inaudible) or but in this case we would want to know exactly how they organize citizens (inaudible). First one(inaudible) is when you work out with alot of (inaudible) see it on the(inaudible) yeah.
Angela Okune 7:16
(Inaudible) Karibu, we are talking about researchers. But we just began.
Unknown Female Speaker 7:22
Ok my name is (inaudible) and with my face after reading and am like Ok My name is my photo and some write up caption inside so I even asked the reception now (Inaudible) because it's like they are using me for advertisment. But they didn't but again even in the newspapers it was I remember scenario whereby. You were at a demonstration in town and that some of my photos was in the function and people are calling me. Did Nation pay you, were you paid? Such kind of questions.
Angela Okune 8:03
Of course no.
Unknown Female Speaker 8:05
They don't pay. You said you bought the rights.
Angela Okune 8:14
So what kind of promises sorry, I don't know if you mind if we can introduce your name. I'm Angela.
Male Respondent 8:23
Angela Okune 8:24
I'm working on. [inaudible] I'm originally from Hawaii. Actually, I didn't say I'm originally from Hawaii, home of Obama.
But my husband's from Butere, that's the "Okune" part.
Male Respondent 8:41
So Hawaii is a state in the United States in America.
Male Respondent 8:46
Is it a state or a country?
Angela Okune 8:48
It used to be a country and then the United States took it over illegally.
Sorry, go ahead.
My name is Daniel.
Angela Okune 8:58
Daniel. Karibu muffins. We have a friend here who can open [the soda] for you. They are sharing about the kind of research that they've been part of.
Male Respondent 9:24
I don't have an opener.
Angela Okune 9:28
Oh, the last one [bottle of soda] is always the problem. [Because you can't use another unopened bottle to open it as we did with the others.]
Male Respondent 9:48
Angela Okune 9:50
So anyway, sorry. So I'm doing research on research. Yeah, so most of my research is actually I'm researching the researchers, but I'm just having some small sessions. Like one or two, to understand also from the perspective of people who have participated in research and to understand some of the experiences. Yeah, so we had just started, guys were talking about the kinds of projects they have been part of. Yeah. So I don't know, maybe you can just say one or two that maybe you can remember.
It's quite intriging that you're doing you're doing a research on research.
Angela Okune 10:22
Well, there's a number of cases that are either participated on someone's collecting data this was the participants or respondents. So there are a number I've been, I think even just giving the opinion that somebody's doing pieces, that is the research. So most of it comes asking about the inclusion of you. I think I've done a lot of it in governance.Worried what is the status of the young people's participation in in matters of governance in Kibra, or Kibera, it doesn't matter. To be done. The religious tolerance Yeah.I can do my mistake and possibly on on sexual reproductive health.
Angela Okune 11:22
Politics. I think you're also mentioning a lot of politics. Have you been part of research on the elections on those kinds of things? What kinds of research topics have you guys seen sana sana hapa Kibera like most people are interested in each particular agenda. (inaudible section)
Unknown Female Speaker 11:39
Post Election Violence
I think so much. We are building a nation we had something to do with that and I think we were collecting information. And this basically it formed the background of [redacted] where they were collecting in terms of raw maps which people have in their respective area. So your taught what to do I will send messages in terms of (inaudible) those individuals also because we realised we most of our data covering elections might have violence, and most of them are based on false information. We have people that say, yes, somebody comes up with it, then the book erupts. So we wanted to get that information from individuals then maybe follow up on them and see what the whether it's true or wrong. Yeah. So its something which we did in [redacted].
Male Respondent 12:47
It was a kind of survey to just find out the kind of the information flow, how does information flow from one person to the other. And what model of information do people trust most. To try and see the rumours that spread around during election time that can trigger violence. So that was basically the best sense of the take (inaudible section) to try and work out rumours to see if we have out of all this information, we thought this was considered verified to be true to the process of a primer. So before we started implementing on Africa, we needed to know first how the information flowed from one place to the other, from one person to the other and from one Media house to the other.
Angela Okune 13:44
and maybe this is hard to answer but how do you feel? Do you see research differently done differently when people like let's say [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] who are here, do a project from let's say maybe a PhD student who comes and they're not from here and they don't stay. How do you see the differences between the kinds of research that is done? Maybe you can't say anything bad with this guy over here, maybe we need to kick him out. [all laugh]
Male Respondent 14:14
I think what I have seen quite often even within [redacted name of Kibera-based organization]. not just outside.
Angela Okune 14:31
Yeah. Yeah. Because there are others, sindio?
Male Respondent 14:37
You look at the design of the questionnaires, the questionnaire. and you start quickly looking at the person whether he does not have the clear. Maybe the interest that he was looking for, is quite different from what the locals and you know are thinking all The same subjects or you might say these are the two examples. We did the [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] there. We need the survey for water and sanitation.After all, we had collected them to the people. We were actually rushed here on this table. I remember very clearly And the conclusion was (inaudible) this cannot go on and even the waters and sanitation map was shelved.So it is never one of those that came out publicly as the (inaudible section) lat we collected and that's the one of the areas that we use it (inaudible). because the design of the question was I know that and people could not quite understand first time the kind of (inaudible section) what a poll is, what we will be doing first before he starts deciding what next. In in he will go to the ground and come back, then he will bring this up with this to try and see if we can workout. Whether the content as too long and you find what you have here is only 20% or less right and 80% or more it tends to be false, because you don't know what it means. Because here it was just wrong. We have seen such cases I have also seen in other scenarios where if you look at the questions and don't understand what this person is looking for. Maybe the question is too vague, or too intrusive just you don't understand what this person is looking for. Especially even the questionniores may ask you to fill in a few. This this type of sense already. So this at times will bring policy. So I don't understand if the outcome is most likely to be seen like Luo and you know in Kibera quarter of the population is Luo. And you find this is the ethical instance. Some may hide their tribe and the go ahead and publish or you go (inaudible) look so that it looks nice and kind somewhere of presented to you but whatever that they don't let it seem unethical. This type of cases I have also seen them, those are very critical area is to the diagnosis they were also the taking to the media(inaudible) big organizations saying Kibera at thebeginning of last week. (inaudible)
Unknown Female Speaker 18:55
Be sensitive, the kind of researc you're carrying out and Tool kit design because for instance if [redacted name of Kibera-based organization], there's [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] and there's this university students, ok not you [apologetically gestures to Angela].
Angela Okune 19:13
[brushes it off] no, I study myself.
Unknown Female Speaker 19:19
That University student is coming to Kibera from somewhere (inaudible) to ask the first question about there and this [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] guy who knows the people very well and knows how to maneuver to not miss out anything. So for me I'd prefer someone from [redacted name of Kibera-based organization]. But there's another research like now this one that they're doing anyone can do research without research because remember when you were doing the housing project in Mukuru. In particular very difficult because I took some student from Manchester University, University of Nairobi to go to Mukuru, but they were chased away and we couldn't get any information. And yet, go back again and work with the community train these peoples on how to do the research.
Male Respondent 20:28
Now. I think it's I'd like to put that in three different dimension. dimension one is, what is the outcome? What is the objective of the research? Well, Kibra for a long time, the type of researches we have seen an outsider watching or researcher would basically do a research from a desktop review. You know theories based on what people see on the media what you read in print. And you really want to come in very hot because this is the truth of what Kibra for example, the theory about the population. Another theory has been that it has generally a social, you know, Gino violence, you know. And more of it is the level of sanitation you hear these things outside this is what level Kibra. This is how its profiled from an outside perspective. Now, the second approach would be if I want to have an outside the researcher versus inside the insider researcher would already know the practicalities about Kibera. And what they really want to do is probably have it firmly up for another project. You know, another program to verify what they really know. And that one the outsider really is on a fact finding mission. The research doesn't end up with a solution, it end up to a suggestion of a solution. Yeah, I think in entire these, the only, you know, at the end of the day, I have never seen an outsider researcher is there are solutions coming to the implement, leave alone getting implemented, but feedback, generally getting into the feedback because most of the research is now you leave your context behind it. And then we will send you (inaudible) a number of times I have had to live bug in my emails. And all I get is just thank you for participating in this research. So, I'm looking forward to research where I will claim now this was the outcome of what you really discussed in this is what the point of investigation was generally, I think to me, that would be the one objective of a research is the feedback. So I think in those three dimensions.
Angela Okune 23:26
Excellent on the question of feedback. I think I don't know if you had come have you so you haven't seen any feedback ever come back from a research. Has anyone ever been part of any kind of session where someone comes back and tells you something?
Unknown Female Speaker 23:40
What we do in SBI, any kind of a research we undertake in there we come back to people and verify now with the template.
Angela Okune 23:53
in a report or in a baraza session, email that session, and how did they appreciate it?
Unknown Female Speaker 24:00
It was never appreciated to verify before we could.
Male Respondent 24:06
That's what I'm saying yeah, it's so if you get much feedback, I think you can probably see that even before you you can you can have it in a document and before it's published I think, would you be confirmed to this is what your opinion is, you know that is that is more close. Now today if to send after publication, the feedback is now more now, this is the outcome of what we discussed. I think these are two different things. So the basic part of that is talking about before they go to do data collection, definitely. So they want to be sure that the data they have collected from people is actually correct before may be they publish. Right. So that's just one process, but then there is been after the publication, you tell the people that from the data we collected from the research we did This is the research consume it.
Angela Okune 25:08
but I think that's another point. Also, how can people use because sometimes and this is now on the topic, isn't it? Because sometimes there are topics, maybe very theoretical ones, how can it be implemented? And this is not a question of the kind of research that happens. So okay maybe like a water borehole thing. This one is dirty, this is fine. Now you have some action, maybe you can take But beyond that, how Yeah, sometimes some research projects might be tricky. If you want to see a solution come out of it. Yeah, I don't know when
Male Respondent 25:39
I think this based on what we have done here, this is one of those in the last bit. any research before you mean any resoultion as an objective what is the objective of many of these researchers who come to Kibera. And any research document ends up in a report, and that report has both the findings and the conclusion and the calculations. So, these two aspects there, the conclusion and calculation it is anticipated. But the(inaudible segment) is maybe one influence policy(inaudible) how something can be done better job when you decide to hide it published in the US and it remains there. And the reports remains there then perhaps you're not being useful to the locals because you are presenting your recommendations with their own platform and there lies the problem because the moment the, your findings and recommendations are presented in our own forum and you think we care. What does it do? It does not leave the(inaudible). what it doesn't say about to Objective you see for the researcher he has to address that objective and we realized that most of this researches Yes they normally have objectives. But now there is a how do I put it? You realize that the issue is there but now the results of these aren't coming up for example, like let me just say because you see there are some people I think you see normally I believe that there are some people who normally as much as this disaster of research may come out, they just want to block that deceipt. So, that they providing part of Kibera remains that Kibera is a place where these complexities so that people in fact like now maybe the US they just recommend you (inaudible) decide you can pick up Kibera maybe that then it'll be even for them yet that way in which they are comfortable like that, besides being he does not even help the person who is (inaudible) Who is in Kibera, I Remember, we were discussing with MK-KM-S-08 about the kindness, that issue of kindness. Yes the place people are kind but times the things which make people feel the way they feel its not about the because we give that space that kind. So that's why somebody's putting that issue in propotion in terms of(inaudible) like now I remember when we were doing that research on kindness people were asking us you're telling us you have done all these things and we have not seen even feedback why are you coming and telling us about kindness? Will that kindness feed me? So there's some clouds which are covering this idea of research and that is absolutely finding cannot even appearing anywhere because we have quite a couple of other researches like there was the one I was seeing that there was on sanitation of water and sanitation Which was done by UNHABITAT and yet in Kibera, 10 years ago Yes, I'm still that people will still come for the same they just changing words, now it was in by then it was on the intergrated water and sanitation. They just twist the word, the English word then they come with another thing to mean the same thing. And we're not Moving ahead, that's all, they are some organization which at least like she was saying, they are trying whatever they're doing. They present the people around, Even if you ask me a question about whatever they did yesterday, you can even tell me Come again, tomorrow I will assist you with more information you want, because there's something which they're trying to do based on as much as they don't get because Kenyans don't like to read about. But as much as they give you that information. And that information, they'll see maybe atleast there's some change. They're see a bit of change towards whatever information they give,but if they give that information, then that information is going to be used again, against them again. In other words, then now they tend to run away from that. Asking them a lot of questions.
Angela Okune 31:16
And these topics and the kind of the common research topics. Beyond that, what else do you think people need to know? Are there topics that aren't researched? Are there things that people don't know, maybe so much data has been collected and held on sanitation or maybe something is missing
Male Respondent 31:36
I think in terms of the amenities that people can always research for. But first things first, you need to do research on basic needs, every what people need, once you have done a research on health or on education or on any basic needs that a normal person will need then those things once the research has been done and there are some changes towards that is whatever that research Now we can see that now we have water, now we have hospitals then they you can continue doing research in other areas but there's no need to do research on water and no findings, no conclusion, no any development towards that then you want to come again tomorrow with another research then it's like there's no need for this research as much as your keeping that information somewhere which is not even geared at everybody.
Unknown Female Speaker 32:26
I think we follow. Very little. In spite of so many researches that are carried out on daily basis, the only thing that comes back to them. If maybe the [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] research center. Let's go to Gatekera and tell the people about image. And lets (inaudible) like 10% depending on the on the NGO that (inaudible) are taking research in Kibera. (Inaudible) You asked what people's would be on Kibera (inaudible) but gender based violence, that's a topic that has been over researched. In the past, if you ask any organization research is? women, GBV. Trust me, there's no data about this topic on Gender Based Violence (inaudible). Okay, in Gatekera, we have this number, In Makina, we don't have that kind of data. Even though sijui kama hiyo ni ukweli. We don't have data on GBV (inaudible text) institutions, research is given by both even though that there's no data.
Male Respondent 33:54
Unknown Female Speaker 33:55
Angela Okune 33:58
So you have done so much on GBV but there's no data.
Male Respondent 34:02
A little bit
Unknown Female Speaker 34:05
even the (inaudible) They came up with an App. But that App died the same date it was launched. I could go back.
Male Respondent 34:15
I think you mentioned something similar. Something around 2014 I received a phone call from [redacted name]. What do you think about what the one day the particular idea (inaudible) he was telling me his looking for data on (inaudible) So somebody told him he could hold a research and he called me. I have received it from some source. Just one source so I sent him the figures. Then we met with him and somebody from (inaudible) and see where the project can start. That means that despite many, many, many organizations coming to Kibera to do all this research (inaudible) and that's what determines the (inaudible) because we have big organizations like (inaudible), which have worked in Kibera for a long time. Others like (inaudible) who have been here for a long time, and not just those two who are 100% based in Kibera, we have. Around the same year in 2014, [redacted name] ,was launching a project here called Huduma. And that project was largley aimed at consolidating the works (inaudible) in different locations.Were just within these areas that we have is particular project in area A, it is funded by so and so, this is the budget, this are our objectives only that doing just 40. What is the (inaudible) project? They didn't have it. They said including (inaudible). But that means that as much as transparency, good governance, all those things we are only good at talking about them, but when it comes to practise, not me.
Angela Okune 37:05
I mean, what do you think might be the worries of making, let's say research data public? And I'm talking maybe not even just the numbers, but even now like transcripts, so like, let's see the type of version of an audio recording. Let's say we do an interview. And then now I take even that audio or maybe the typed up version, and share it. What would your worries be? How would you feel about things like that?
Unknown Female Speaker 37:32
Angela Okune 37:34
Unknown Female Speaker 37:35
Let's say like for the purpose of fundraising. (Inaudible)
Male Respondent 37:52
I think (inaudible) has been a victim of that. I think one of the things that are really keenly Listen. Starting that narrative when we just talked about the topics that have been over-researched.And I think the question is the Kibera has been over-researched or not know that as a game considering the interest of the time and the timing. You know right now you, the people can over research in so many issues in Kibera right now. One is because probably over the by-election, again to gain the public opinion, you know, on some political direction, okay, because it's election time. With that, that is relatively calm, I think we will now begin to narrow down the basics in research again, you know, the what you mentioned, the water, sanitation and everything.But I always ask myself, why, why good institution. For example, like You know, [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] or you know the legitimate local institution find time to ask why is there for example narrow down in Kibra. Begin to question why there's always violence associated with one village. If if these political (inaudible) why is there always violence in that particular area because that they will assist us avoid this subjective things that comes from marketing as Kibra. For example , why would you know any slum area be thrown to political manipulation? Why would this slum for example not in your area in Singapore they are always stable but why is this one? So, I think as much as there being alternatively about over researching in Kibra and I don't think much of except what kina [redacted] think if there is concentration on the outcome on okay now it doesn't mean happy now this outcome would you really want to make you ask another question? Why would I what would happen if my you know, my audio is used? know one of the things expose it in a way where you're using it for example, can I have control me to confirm that is my own voice and that is what I see. You know,and down here, in Gatika, I don't know if MK-KM-S-08 you can remember there was an Italian exhibition is to be a very wonderful exhibition of Kibra. And that's (inaudible) how the person took a photo and it become the talk of the world. You know, he was trying to do some exhibition, the railway lines, the housing Unless you can remember the Italian photographer, yes. And that that was displayed somewhere in the internet, I didn't know it was San Francisco. Yes, you know, and now it becomes the talk of the town. So the people who participate in that wonder where this was now becoming the talk of the world? The benefits that are coming there was no one aware. And I think probably, I wasn't part of it but that guy could have convince those guys that if this goes well,probably we will plow back to to assist. So all in all, I think when you decide to, for example, publish and say this was the audience that we're taking, I think authoritatively, people should have authority to what they say. I can confirm that such as a day, this was my voice. It may give factual information that without it being misquoted. Yeah.
Angela Okune 39:51
So would you like to identify your voice? Like some someone who could identify like, Oh, I know that voice? Because maybe if it's available online, it's not just people in Majuu (abroad), but also even your neighbors that could also theoretically access through online, isn't it? So how would you classify that?
Male Respondent 42:20
That's what I'm saying sorry. If I am giving out facts,
Angela Okune 42:24
Male Respondent 42:24
you know, the reality about Kibra without really not exaggerating,
Angela Okune 42:30
Male Respondent 42:31
Remember the, the problem (inaudible) , like, like Madonna coming in and you see all these things, he'll say very nasty things about Kibra in the process of looking for followership on social media. You know, what I'm saying is that if I can say qualitativly that Kibera has been deemed these for this reasons, reason only because there is a reality to what he said. I have no problem because that is my voice. That is exactly my idea. And not only here in so many platforms in media I found not what I have said was always correct? Yeah. So nobody can force me for you know, you're trying to force people up and down. No saying wrong things about Kibera.
Yeah, I think the topics that people have highlighted to be over-researched in Kibera. For example, [redacted] said GBV issues and others. Yeah, some of these topics can be over-researched and a Kibera person can be like, Oh, this is too much of this topic. But I'm glad that [redacted] is also highlighting things that needs to be explained. Why is it that there is always some violence politically instigated in certain villages, of Kibera. So those estimates and others that run and other stuff done, and other guys can come up with. So we need to know and when our researcher comes and we can ask them that Look, this is what needs to be researched we have had too much of that, can you change your research to this one? And like Dan Say it again, every researcher or research has his own objective. Sometimes we, we think so broad and just expect too much. A certain research which brings change. Most of these researches are academic, for example, university PhD research, we need to know where are they supposed to be ending at, at whose desk which action is supposed to be taken by this research? Who is going to take it because when a researcher comes either from US or UK and do their research on whatever topic they have chosen, where should this research end up so it's going back to the university sometimes it's not meant to be public. Remember, not all researches should be public. So we need to know that some certain are not public, however,I still feel that they should be responsible enough, at least to say, but then what are they? The regulations for example, we are now going to sign a lot of paperwork here from her university. And maybe her university says that this research is meant for university only and yet we want to expect her to send out to the public. What is that? The policy, the university policies are saying about that. How about other organizations that also carry out other researches are they making it public? How about researches done by the government, should they remain public? So we need to categorize and know which research should be made available to us. Is it within their policy or not? Otherwise you can be expecting too much when it's not really necessary. Going back to this story of some guy doing some amazing stuff. (Inaudible) Yes, I was that time I was actually in the United States, Washington DC that I have this story but before I went to US though, I saw this program here they open was planning and covering the houses with the great artwork. So they asked Kibera people with a human eye because those living at Gatekera next to (inaudible) there, their houses, they had old roofs ,(inaudible) but some of them are leaky. So the guys said, okay. I have a project I'm running here but I want to change your roof, you know. I will remove these old iron sheets and put you a new ones. Sounds like a good deal, you know? Someone is coming to Give me a new roof. Sure why not? Then they put all those human eyes on. Blah blah blah. Your new they're putting another art work on top. So they went, I'm thinking this guy comes and (inaudible) sees that opportunity is a very nice artwork that is just abandoned has stayed there for one year. But it's still in good shape. And he wonders what are people doing with all this valuable stuff? In fact, in fact, that guy is the one who came and tell them I'm taking this up and replacing with the new iron sheets. So he took all the iron sheets, the art work around that area very well put the new iron sheets and people are so happy this mzungu has done us a favor. The guy went to sell these things in San Francisco, he did an exhibition a very big one. He raised a lot of periods. But and this thing gets published in New York Times how someone has made a lot of money in Kibera.And now some people from Kibera get a glimpse of the internet and it starts spreading around like you how can one person make alot of money like that. He needs to bring back to the community. They are blaming him like a lot and I'm like okay (inaudibe) that's me a lot of people including my colleagues and you blame me but I'm like this guy just came on so an opportunity but no one else saw. So you are expecting him to come on now so we can eat this together. No, this guy so they were getting to that you didn't see yet young people are seeing opportunities in Kibera and coming to utilize them the right way.You should appreciate the iron sheets that you were given.
Yeah, it's one to disagree with me (inaudible) yeah its Ok. Yeah.I also have another question that I was talking about Mzungu taking and going to fundraise abroad, getting a lot of money. Some of these are just perceptions. Even me, with my Kibera Mapping team we go around and sometimes people tell us Oh you're making money out of taking photos your going to sell our photos to mzungu. This Mzungu can buy your picture. Now if I take a picture of that one and go and sell it in US will someone buy it? So if a photographer comes to Kibera, goes around and take photos randomly. He gets a young chils, a young girl who is fetching water and the tap is drying so the girl is just waiting there.I think that one must have known this story in the setting up of [redacted name of Kibera-based organization]. So After 10 years, these guys this photo, they, they took it to OneWorld it is a water company in the UK. And this guy's fundraised that because they wanted to supply water in Turkana and some dry places in Africa. So they fundraise using that picture to show how Africa is suffering because of water like this young girl. So they got a lot of money then they said, okay, because this young girl, we use her photograph. Let's go back and look for her. We have to help her. So they came back to Kibera after 10 years and they didn't know how to find her. They will look for the South African photographer to come and help them that the photographer cannot remember because he was just walking on randomly. So they approached us as [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] because we have done some mapping on water and sanitation and some mapping. We may have an idea. So looking at water sanitation, we could not even remember because there was a lot of development that are taking place. Roads that had demolished some water points, and then we walked with that photo from one building to the other asking and people could not really remember Finally, we got that it was from Soweto east. And then but the the child had moved 10 years is a long time her parents had died she she was now living with Auntie in Embu. And she had actually joined form one we traced her up to there and we got to the girl. We interviewed up to be very sure that she's actually the one where were you 10 years ago what happened blah, blah, blah. You remember this picture? Yeah, so she was caught and she got she was given a scholarship to study in UK, followed by vacation was taken care of. And now this was a success story. At least those people remember that child that big picture 10 years ago to come and give back to the community. So this things vary, (inaudible),
Again from from a positive response and the positive outcome, you know, literally what Kibereans say about selling photo is not literally taking it and selling it. It's it's part of the program for example, the the fundraising bit of it, that you see this is the photo you take and you fundraise it and exaggeration of facts. You see we are not saying that now that no take the risk without return. Doesn't he really understand the information. He gave out. How is it going to work in his or somebody else's interest without him having authority? That's what I was saying qualitative, the owners of it. So literally this is that is what people means no, you're taking my photo you're gonna sell and am not really saying you physically take it and sell it they're saying. Now we know that responses are generated from from these probably to fundraise. But then if you fundraise it might only benefit your organization and benefit a number of programs, it may not come directly to me, like he can direct you to that job. You know, and that is a very, that's a very success. Success Story. So, yeah, probably I think that is.
Angela Okune 53:31
So can I ask, what would you say then are the responsibilities of the researchers keeping in mind I think most of you have also done research. And you know, that sometimes you're also limited because you're also just a person. So what do you would you say, in your opinion, the responsibility for a researcher to do like what at minimum, what, what should every researcher feel like they have to do?
Male Respondent 53:56
At least expect from the objective that you are talking about? What is your objective first is this researcher conducting? Is it geared towards some change some action then after you've done it on both desk does it end up? It's meant to end up on government,Kenyan government desk which means So, you should as the researcher know that this is this the research that we did about Kibera for this and this and that are the recommendations 123 should happen. So hoping that they can take some action.
I think there are multiple issues here; one is the ethical position of the research, am talking about reforming policy. Which is a standard procedure or purpose.How many of these researchers do inform the participants in the research what ought to be known by them? Because some of the questions that have been raised are related to that.Now we have one difference not just the photo issue is also related to that.If you are taking a photo, I know a photo that has been taken in here, or in the magazines published by the companies and when you read the content of what in my options are just focus on, for me that research that was happening affects two contrasting scenarios which users here. I remember a case,of two photos that were taken in Kibera of Lucy, and it was a magazine published by a (inaudible) who came back and when you read the caption we had to defend was(inaudible) one written in English and one written in (inaudible). I asked the English person to (inaudible) because it was appearing in the data because her eyes appear to have been very far. When you look at the caption and the content here the one that is being used for fundraising, means something that is untrue completly opposite to the reality.So these are two stories that I have began I didn't know herealso I was working in Denmark and found that(inaudible) .
Angela Okune 56:59
Male Respondent 56:59
In Copenhagen. (inaudible) I couldn't read that language but I think somebody might have interpreted in I just it's just called the slum boy. It was more of a slum it could be news. So it's three cities, almost Denmark in one. So the very big bill policy of the politician, but it was a photo that was taken. Those are the exact things that am taking about informed consent issues and what these photos end up. the others in billboards the other in magazines and other places. So the question is, what is the value? This the publicity, but what about the images? Do the images also have rights? that is the bigger question.Because I know of a few stories, most of you know it; this thing that was called the [redacted]. They took young people from Kibera, picked young people and the guys who did this for Kibera, I know them. I always see them walking around. (Inaudible) yes that one, (inaudible) that is the second one. The first one is the community then togetherness screen and the third then a fourth for all these films have won multiple awards, but the guys the actors that has characters in these images This fields have been left here. And then a few years later, this game has appeared and has been relocated in Westlands and now there's a guard at the gate.(inaudible)
Angela Okune 59:04
What promises have been made to you about research? Like research projects? Were you told you are going to be on a billboard in Denmark? Or like how much? What did they promise research will do when when they're coming down to, let's say, recruit or are there any promises made? Any anonymity? Sharing of?
Male Respondent 59:27
Well, I think first one is some I always feel that, you know, most of us, especially those who aren't aware, we're providing information, they don't know that providing information, you know, safe for professionals like the one I'm squarely informed that we are recording for the purposes of documentation. But I always feel that in a way in the photographs, in audios, people get information from Kibera. Without them not knowing, sometimes very raw information that you know, ought to have been provided a lot of privacy and therefore, in that means that if you publish it, they want to know, because you cannot you cannot know if the information is for publishing or not. But I think the promise has been you know, this is my project for example, and this is will inform a program that you can be part of, I think that is the many of the promise is like objectives (inaudible) several programs because, you know, we, we are beginning over six months program one year program in we cannot begin from a point of lack of information. And you people who will participate, providers us with this information. So, I think with that kind of gullibility you don't expect a lot because you know, you already will be involved in six months or one year in a program. So even you will provide a lot of information by the way, and don't expect much to be given. So but is that is there is the other aim is that at a professional level, of course.And I thinkone of the one of that program that you mentioning was basically dealing with, you know, how the youth engaged in governance and security matters in Kibera? And I said, why not? Why would I not engage on this, because this is probably an area of my interest and as I was providing information as I'm doing now, by the way, providing a lot then, you know, because it's something you're very passionate about. in those areas. They don't even take a lot of photos or take photos, but I think also they were so sharp in the way that they got it. Because as You're walking around in Kibera. So I think you can suspect a lot, but they know exactly what they're doing. So, I think from a professional level is like, Okay, I'm also interested for example, to know what is research on a personal level. For me, if this document comes out, and I'm also interested in Kibera, I cannot authoritativly refer to it.So, that is has that in me, you know, give us wisdom in it and get back to you. So, it is some names MK-KM-S-08 and that was coming, but would you with this thing. It is not like the respondents expected expecting a lot. You know, you know, when you ask us tomorrow focus group discussion, I know, the professional pitch in a normal expectation or not so probably cannot ask for more. You know, but if if a researcher gets excited about data in a box, participation and can can really unexpectedly say Something more than you can provide later or he can provide later, then it becomes a point of conflict. because our respondents are we asked him to be given, because you said it. So is it always be something to do with managing expectations or something like this.
Angela Okune 1:03:16
Anyone ever promised to give you the data back? Have you ever been given the data?
Male Respondent 1:03:21
I am telling you that, this is like the I have done for research where I've provided my images, and I'm not asking them, they're telling me now this information is so helpful. We're going to put it together and share it with you. I didn't expect much but just to participate for us also important it reaches a level for us as researchers, in Kibera leaders. Where it will be heard that, some documents are not you know, because its professional with its information base. And as a leader, if I don't even for example, race, it's about the level of sanitation the level of governance is putting your name in Kibera it gives you credibility. You know when you are in leadership it Yeah, because you and that hence I was saying facts you provide facts in its facts that can be required. You know.
so on that Yeah, that was has been mentioned more than 15 times in different articles that last I don't know whether you're proud about this happy that you are famous or you have issues with it? Dan appeared in the streets of Denmark. Actually he is so happy about it He posted on Facebook how the. ... I posted the bus, not the billboard. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because he was, it was a fundraiser that I accepted. Okay, but the billboard I didn't until now, I have a problem actually. Yeah.
Angela Okune 1:04:58
So uncertain certain contexts, the person should also get some of the renumeration if someone is making profit off of you. And the responsibility of those cases I to also make sure some of that goes back to the person whose image is there, isn't it? I think that's what I'm hearing.
Male Respondent 1:05:16
Even I'm still saying it's unethical for someone, to use this image because we just need its a simple thing to do this and (inaudible). Because I don't believe, b ecause I just seen an opportunity for some for some poor people in Kibera, It's unethical for me just to run around with the pictures maybeinstead of just doing a simple CSR like probably build a small school there. Because even either way, we have not done it the right way.We have just the big companies who do CSR the way people do.(Inaudible)
Angela Okune 1:06:19
think often researchers and especially academics don't think of themselves as actually implementors. I think that's part of the challenge. Researchers just see themselves as taking facts synthesizing, publishing so much, but then they never actually take the step to do that thing, isn't it? They would never go and set up a school.
Male Respondent 1:06:40
So thry are journalists?
Angela Okune 1:06:42
Yeah, you seem like journalists and they see they see themselves sometimes as such.
Male Respondent 1:06:46
okay. I agree with what you say that it's unethical because as much as you're seeing that if they're just they're just people get information, but I think there is a point where we are missing in terms of getting the terms of policy. Whereby you see to as much as that this differently there let's say generally speaking journalists, take the picture maybe your picture when you are running on the street and he will put some words there. He won't come with media content to allow for that but somebody just come and like media when they are doing something exclusive in news. They normally ask you after doing clearing and they normally talk to you to just confirm whatever it's at or whatever was at the site was whether you agree with it or not. You have to give our consent that you can publish this. So as I said also maybe if you know you're going to publish something which somebody information, someone's idea I think he just need maybe to like now you're thinking about after this will be signing some consents. I think something of the sort is needed when he come to me to ask me some information which I have, then the you're going to take credit on it without my consent. I think like I remember when I was in stopping us in University taking photos. And it was really just kind of training. But at the end, they were telling us to write a content whether we will like that was to be used on social media. Anywhere. If you say yes they use, if you say no, they won't to use it. And that's I think that's the reason why most of people in Kibera normally say they're going to say My God, because he will ask you say the story of his day. It was about issue, getting need to find the funds to make a system seem a issue of what I can. And if you're looking for that, why did they go live Of course, they just came to Kibera because they knew Kibera is the best place and you see like, most of the time, even the news they realize that this war somewhere a certain political issue and the best picture you see you'd be seeing the the just a route in Kibera where,someone thinks is a warzone instead of bringing that place, which is a particular issue.
What you just said(inaudible) I would say it when election was. When Maraga announced that he has nullified the elections. It was largely the same case, and you're cutting a piece of wood in 2007 contradiction, saying this is the situatition on the ground in Kibera. I'm taking this leap over here is not correct. And they blasted CNN this evening had to apologize later.Not correcting me, probably proudly, attempting to play around with words but the reactors have been known.this A similar scenario happened around this year, early this year when a lady a New York Times correspondent, they did some piece then the content that was in that report was false. Then we asked, she was asked here the lady whose covers Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda. What is all this about?Her response is, this is what is reported in CNN,but it is false.You see, so we interprate things happening around all over the place.And now nobody's unhappy thatwhen I was talking the discussions around community leadership sometimes back, the communication lacks.But (inaudible) we're sharing information that is kind of Limited. And now images are being littered, Particularly the Kenyans on Twitter KOT. Again, no, no.(Inaudible)
Angela Okune 1:11:26
Male Respondent 1:11:28
So but last mention something after the about the research. A lot of researchers have been government.But is it also true that there are some people maybe at the top that don't want this researches to be in the public domain because of their own interest? Could there be something like this. For example, the government that we expect to take some action and improve lives as for the recommendation made by the government itself. doesn't quite that change and so they keep on saying No this has to be made the way it is. So that can also be something I think because people, Kibera has been a slam for so long we have so many NGOs in here a lot of money have been parked so much research has been done. Why is it that Kibera is not changing or changing at a very slow pace. Or two, Kibera people themselvessometimes don't want that change that you think they want. If you go around asking when it when we do our small small videos in the community for Kibera News network about slum upgrading for example. People will tell you that we are comfortable the way we are. We go much land of plenty because it will complicate our lives. For example, But there are also majority who want it doesn't mean that everybody doesn't want it. So there are some issues. Some people want it some people doesn't want. Maybe some people at the top especially politicians also doesn't want Kibera to change because this is where they get alotof votes this where they come to campaign and they have to keep those people poor. So that they continue manipulating like that my dad was saying political manipulation. So this is also an area that we have to look at. Back to Kenyans on Twitter, all these and Shofco Kibera what was Madonna. Sometimes we just have to blame ourselves. Because there is no way Madonna can come from nowhere. Take a picture and say, This is the kind of water Kibera people drink. She has no idea about someone and I don't think Shofco leasdership would say that, she could say that it probably some junior person who was walking around with Madonna and then once we exaggerate things like Danny said just look at the the way Kibera people drink water from sewage, yaani how low is that? So it's not it is us who are even saying these things and we are the first ones to stand up and complain. So, we must plan to be sincere with ourselves and take control if we don't do this so many researches have been done on Kibera, for example, and so many people have said so much lies in this research just to please a researcher. Tell them what they want to hear. Even if we talked about election violence. They already know that this guy is looking this type of information. So I tell them what they want to hear. If it's from Amnesty International peacenik, they know that this is a guy from peace, prosperity. So he wants me to say something that is peace related. So I tell them what they want to hear. Some people sit in the United States and send people on the ground saying you go and do a research or survey and come. Even now they shall make and feel and feel them different man they eat so it is asked to say this false information this past who runs to complain and it's us who blame the researchers?
Okay I think we deal with three issues differently first one I don't want to blame government my on okay just some people trying to hide information that comes from Kibera. For the wrong reasons and I put a number of reasons why. International bereau standards. We have statistic update after every 10 years we do census.
Angela Okune 1:16:02
Did they come?
Male Respondent 1:16:03
Yes, we will all see this figures.
Angela Okune 1:16:06
And did they ask good questions or bad questions?
Male Respondent 1:16:08
On the ID or I give you an example.in 2009, maybe the census we just came out. This census figures of 174,000 people in Kibera.But you see how many views and many other people seriously about a million of a million.This is a critical source,international Bureau of Statistics. So why are people still saying one of a million, about a million and things like those that was doubted to be too low. Okay, for reasons; one two, market itself lead a similar theme and came up with a figure. 254,000 people as being double the population in the whole of Kibera it was confirmed by the Embassy of Belgium which is another fairly heavy entity and it's reputable. How many NGO's have accepted to quote those as credible sources?and you see here is the problem. When you look at his figures the [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] and the safe, produced and compare it with quotes the government gave. You could actually see where the variable came from.Because when Government was dealing that, it did not include places like the real deep who are settled in Karanja and this is like (inaudible) you see? So, when you look at those ones and try to compare them, then you realize how the value came from who came from, then you will see this figures appearing to be almost similar, but how many in Kibera including White House its about a million. So, this is a problem, deliberate problem. Somebody is deciding to do something differently. And he decided the word that live talks about perception in my mind, this is what they want to depict. So whether there is truth here or not, I will stick to my truth.
As seen the second point of research that says we remember is you know, we are having a tussle on slum tourism you know. How is it is it is it high time somebody research on what is the real effective in slum tourism, other than these informal setting I was thinking about it because I think is a multi billion industry industry coupled with with big case NGOs as well.And also I think if if you do research in slum tourism then careers once again very far. Fortunately, the number of non governmental organizations in Kibera on thatwas that now you gave it You know, person I would really be interested to know.Like, like, usually the depth of just mentioned is, you know, the deliberate misrepresentation of facts . Is meant to score a goal is Yeah. That is what I like the word you think it's delivered in if [redacted name of Kibera-based organization] did a survey on Exactly religion, and that is, well just empty until you told me the Bible out don't play the statistics. That was too low, but it definitely stood out for Kibra know if you know, and you can compare it to the number of things to come up with that but it's, it's, it's deliberate. Now the reason as to why I am not able to trust the government, you know, information in detail in Kibra. Because I think the government is slightly responsible for for you know, deliberate exclusion of Kibra. So, then what would I see if these institutions, if the institutions are as good as the people in them, you know, an institution cannot be governed if there's a good person here.So, if we are having data,including the one he has given recently, this subject to facilitation, because right now, each and every region would want to falsify the data that will comein even before the studies, I think you could see for political reason, leaders in Mt. Kenya converged in say, you know, people have to go to be counted, you know, and others actually go to their places to be counted. So, in a true representation, I'm interested definitely to know that somebody somewhere would falsify data and try to interfere With accurate information about Kibra. In Kibera as a slum, because if the facts are out that really work against these people who it works to their advantage. Look at Kibera, Ok.
Ok, let me add something on that.
Angela I know we are getting back off topic.
Angela Okune 1:22:21
No, I think it's a good but I also want to keep an eye on time. I know we have to finish by four. So this is perfect. Oh, this is lovely.
Male Respondent 1:22:31
This is your figure. You see like, I think five years ago we talked about the numbers of Kibera (inaudible). And Still even after now as you take over most of the sites in terms of comparing the biggest land. People of Kibera, they believe that Kibera is the biggest slum in Africa, which in real fairness is not. is number two in 300 but people could put it as over 3 million which is small. So at times, people don't want to play the reality which is on the ground. (Inaudible)
Unknown Female Speaker 1:23:13
Kibera is not even the biggest in Kenya.
Angela Okune 1:23:16
The biggest is?
Unknown Female Speaker 1:23:18
Male Respondent 1:23:19
So, in terms of?
Unknown Female Speaker 1:23:31
Population, Kibera is big, but area wise Mukuru is bigger.
Male Respondent 1:23:36
So he attempts even at the some statistics ama its only in terms of a lake or other things like if he comes up here if he check in the entire Kenya, has a , not replicating in terms of Kibera most of this information which we have in terms of like we were talking about homosexuals, in Mombasa and in Kisumu. Being high in Kisumu, apart from Mombasa, which Mombasa is something which is known. And they are based on I was given your practical surveys in Kilifi. And that was given in terms of the numbers. And I will say in Kisumu that can't be the case they just want to divert some attention in terms of to get the funds and the NGOs. So, these numbers, they just play with it to just create some, somebody wants money. And now let's use data to confuse the people.Once people are Confused, they're getting there and they be using that theory of them is one of six month contract, give us just information. And yet things are different on the ground. And this is working and we also believe that yes, is that like now with Kibera we believe it is a divergence in Africa. If you go and find somebody in Kibera and tell him you don't have money one he will say no.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:24:57
So there's an upcoming research about the NYS project and I arguing with the top researchers, the ones who are coming to do the research. So why in Makina, its like the NYS project was only done in Makina and when you go to Gatekera, those sides of Gatekera 42, there's nothing there's something yes that happend but yes but its like 10, 20% and the person that you are from the NYS to dance. That is a political battlefield, so you couldn't go there. So why is concentrated in Makina? Let's wait for results.
Male Respondent 1:25:17
is that correct or not? That's correct.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:25:56
From me is it's just a conception.Because again when you can't develop an area, because they are very much into politics.
Male Respondent 1:26:13
Most of the facilities in Gatekera and this area were actually vandalized. But yes in other areas they were functional. So, the aspect of politics and how it is affecting development is real.
(Inaudible) And that's why we find some people trying to.
Its actually a research that could be interesting is to know what the the system, the pirate nature. I mean this is true. This are political instigated by the system and its high time we stop self denial.
If am living in Gatekera as my village I'm crying Why is there no development my area, yet in Makina and other places there are. I have to understand that there is a political high assistance in my area that will not affect this kind of development because they be associated with something. You know we we vandalize, actually, we vandalize even the toilets.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:27:19
But I think that's not vandalize because am thinking that Gatekera and 42 its not all actually. Let us not blanket. That's some.
Male Respondent 1:27:34
Unknown Female Speaker 1:27:35
Maybe a mistake.
Male Respondent 1:27:35
That was political.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:27:36
It is one of two because when I go to 42 I see toilets, I see NYS toilets there. (inaudible)
Male Respondent 1:27:51
You see this 42 dynamics is different from Gatekera.
yes, they are totally different this guy is and this way Saying from from from from a researchers perspective I really want to consider this as wherever you really cross thisrail way, you know here. Not really there. But you know Africa can be as Olympic as you enter Kibra. The dynamics just drastically change from that area even how we respond to issues politically resistance wise. Yeah. So, you know, I would be interesting to ask what is people's opinion about and yet it's the same Kibra. You know, what's that would be a very nice topic, for instance. And that's why I am saying its not some leads and we're going to talk about it without feeling be intimidated. Because there are thoughts that are there.
Angela Okune 1:28:49
Just in the few minutes remaining, I would love if anyone else also have ideas for research. They would love to know, things they wish they they were interested in. If he You could do the research, anything you want, what would you want to ask? Which questions bother you
Male Respondent 1:29:14
Mine I'd ask besides what I have just proposed back. Going back to the researches that have been over-researched and trying to do a thesis on them.
For example, gender based violence has been researched. And I think we definitely know the outcome of that research is that like women are more more, you know, more victims. The agenda is victim now I want to ask the men that have had cases of you know, being victims, what would they would do they report to how do they react to it? Yeah. lose as much as anybody they know it has been researching and has been over-researched. Who tells What did the research that tell us about the story of the other gender that you know, there will be a point of my interest as well.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:29:29
But the problem is the men do not come out.
Male Respondent 1:30:12
Now that is this perception is (inaudible) the stigma in all this. Why do they,why would they not?
I think I remember there was a police officer who was beaten by the wife. Alichomwa entire place and now his starting to campaign on men and gender based violence. He came out say that disease does something which you can say that, nilichomwa na bibi and especially if he was chomwa the entire place. (Inaudible)
Angela Okune 1:31:04
Okay, and just two last questions. So you guys have all participated in research, including this one. Why? Why? Like what benefits do you did you see, we can talk in the past tense, because I'm also curious about your future and will you participate in the future and other researches? Why which kinds of research which one would you refuse? Which one Have you refused? Why?
Male Respondent 1:31:38
Okay. There are I think maybe I can.
Angela Okune 1:31:41
So quiet maybe we can see if that has anything to add into. (inaudible) last, I think just because why Why? Why do you think researches Why would you participate? Is research beneficial, even if it's just for pocket money? Like be honest, like, maybe it just helps to pay the bills. I don't know. Like, what's the benefit of research?
Unknown Female Speaker 1:32:06
(Inaudible) You get some moment when you walk around and your asking alot of questions you get to know more. I'd do it again and again.
Male Respondent 1:32:19
I think that's more, doing the research.
Angela Okune 1:32:24
but when you are doing it
Unknown Female Speaker 1:32:26
sometimes it depends on who does it. Some people they are practising. They're not so good. It depends on the topic also. Some researches are an eye opener, and as she said you get to know a lot of these in your community. Okay, one success story I have seen is where the housing research we did in Mukuru and one we have (inaudible) the idea sprouted as a special planning area and at the moment the local consortium that wants to help the community develop.
Angela Okune 1:33:29
for yourself having participated
Unknown Female Speaker 1:33:31
Yeah, I participated in that and I was like Oh. Dealing with people is tough.
Male Respondent 1:33:36
I think for me, having participated in so many researches, both conducting a research and being researched. Conducting a reseach is like what Diana says sometimes you get to learn so many things about people about your community that you did not know about like conducting the interview really. So it's not what I thought actually its different people think differently. So that is what has been good for me. And being researched has helped me especially with our Kibera News network to get new story ideas like now I know I can do something about slum tourism just from this sitting that has raised a very important task and foreigners coming in to do a resaerch, the kind of questions they asked the kind of how they directive they take.Again gives you an idea how an outsider sees Kibera thinks about Kibera, I think can give me another story idea or perspective on what else do we need to do as Kibera News Network. What else can we what are the topics can be marked for itself. So that has been helpful, because it's interesting. It's just nice To hear how people see us from outside and when you tap in that and say, Oh, I think this is a nice thing, oh, this is a bad thing we havethis amazing benefits of research, I think nothing like amy interest right now she'swith a conducted to be there for the switch between what I call I still refer to you know you gain authority you knowin the fact that research quotes you know,build your profile as a leader in whatever publish yourself, especially if it is now on for public consumption. It is for the government.You know even the media becomes good free but it also reset as a component of Google searching and researching it to shoot my last one like what you're saying is probably be purely theoretical thing and believes you have now practically realized that it's differentyou know, it's totally,totally different. But I think for me I'm not closing myself to more recent but then if they're defined objectivesand well achievable expectation.Then why not?Because then when you provide information you also learn.
The focus will be standing in line from this is more for sharing ideas.And also the whether the research is such a new especially so just remember once your comparatively can share the notes you know for you, this is what happened but for country this is so it research has become a platform of money.
Yeah, actually, that is the only person who asked me a lot of questions about this.He asked me pastor who's conducting the research whose research is it, who is involved, else is involved, what what is the research about? I was happy with that he was interested to know, what is the research about, for him to decide whether he wants to take part or not.
Angela Okune 1:37:37
and you would have refused if it was
Male Respondent 1:37:40
Yes,because then like like the experience is talking about is you know, I realized that I went there blindly. So, that there is an answer, you know, the my participation was there blindly, though no defined objectives at all the outcome. So, that is why am very keen in by the way Synovate now they call people nowadays on the phone. You know.
Yes they ask question,you see that is very unethical. Because the new Where did you get my number first of all, and if you will call it to get information for me, for opinion polls for opinion polls. I mean, that is a research and such as ethics you're talking about in the guidelines, you know, how do you archive the data? How do you get your respondents is so that is why I was asking him about today's discussion.Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:38:03
They ask question?
Angela Okune 1:38:34
I know we're close on time but if you have last kabisa.
Male Respondent 1:38:40
the research that was (inaudible)done before started publishing to do a journa.l Everybody used to say but even in the office, where you work, You need to do this strategic(inaudible).Then two of us decided to go and conduct an actual research (inaudible). Just to understand how people think about it. And the results, about 98% was saying don't publish in Kiswahili do English for (inaudible).
Angela Okune 1:39:26
make it simple,
Male Respondent 1:39:27
Make it simple. When you see such a group of people who thought Kiswahili was still important and then we decided to print half in English and half in Kiswahili. But after the third issue we continued with Kiswahili forthwith.So, there's atheory in this country. Many of you hear people say we need to listen to we need to talk Kiswahili we need to we need to see publish publications in Kiswahili but the thing is Kenyans don't like reading Kiswahili but they like speaking Kiswahili. That's an interesting thing that we discovered.There's another one we did on land public land in Lamu. we need the feedback and I'm happy have seen results within the last (inaudiible) with plans not to surrender it back to the government and its being used to do development projects. But that is something confident. On why I also participate in terms of sharing knowledge is critical so any platform that offers an opportunity to learn I will be glad to be there, that's how you open up your mind. Experience means widely your opinions and your level of understanding stands and you have a wider scope something(inaudible).
Unknown Female Speaker 1:41:37
There's one in Gilgil about the railway, the railway project. And at the end of the day because we were tasked and the railway allocation managment. In two weeks time, in two weeks, they put posters everywhere, you know, selling houses.It was a good one, Iliked it. It was not that technical, but we had the parts right.
Male Respondent 1:42:26
Basically what I can say about research and I can see, I used to be slightly over research because I believe I believe in, people doctering data just to speak then with time s much as I've been participating, many of them, but not falling on the part of people doctering the data maybe. Maybe engaging the audience is more than just writing, marking. This part of giving an answer, but I used to ask myself, at least, are this answers really genuine because like,since I was born to at my age since since I've been giving reports each and every 5 they are now in 10 years. But they've been giving, like every year they give a report and I've never been asked any questions. So I was wondering, where is he? Because in 10 years if you have ever met somebody asking something of the sort. And they're doing it in Nairobi, and I've been all part in Nairobi or part of other countries but you've never been outside so you wonder where they get this information or is it just a random? You see because in terms of data am part of the thing is that and I know how you can manipulate this data. that's why I don't want to believe that most of this stuff, there are people who just manipulated to maybe they have a gaining what they They have something that they know that they'll gain in the end, but doing such is the good because, you know, when you're on the other side, any other side of this you need to be learning because research involves you study alot and getting information and I think basically that can be what can I can say what matters is what is inside. Of course you have to learn, you need to go deep into information so that you know, even even in the videos voice, you're able to say what you're saying goes to the complete answer for that. But basically what we normally lack is data, there is no data whereby if somebody is basically if somebody can Google and say, This is what this does for this. That's what motivates people to keep on reminding themselves on one thing, year in year out. Yeah. Which we need. Maybe we need to make some changes on that, and maybe to have things like the policies being put in place there by you can't intervene into the media and there's no consent, using my information somewhere, like, you see the political ads, like his pictures, rambling, but you see you could be happy of him being there. Being an African you can (inaudible) I knew you maybe would that slump only then it gets put up your feet a movie, those are things which we have our attention to normally there are some small things that make one to be happy. That can trigger but I think we need to look for our way of doing research as much as you see the perception. People again, believe that once you do research there has to be something after, because I think most of we know it all starts with objective, you see if you have an objective, and the live is a long time, so you need to do research for based on that objective such that even when you are doing it people know that's okay, these at the end there'll be this even if it is years to come not only that day, but maybe in the future. There'll be something which is good.But as I was reading, there was a place to say that this issue of the research based on results besides nearby maybe, (inaudible section) and then this information is struggling with the people to put normally change, . So maybe they can be giving them that information is going to bring that change tomorrow and they don't want that change to be there. That's what I do something that someone didn't see. Nobody sees that. I'm happy the way I am. So that's the
Angela Okune 1:47:11
development is bringing roads that are cutting across people's houses. Maybe that's not the development that people want. So actually they prefer not to have that, because it's not benefiting them. Things like that. Yeah.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:47:22
(Inaudible) Sometimes you as the researcher may lie to the people to get the information to give it to you.
Angela Okune 1:47:56
Yeah, I mean, it's messy work to comment actually interact people and to learn from each other. I think as much as it can be messy and problematic. I prefer at least you do that then you stay where you are. And you just sit on your computer and you just never actually come.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:48:13
Cause you can walk around cause of your skin colour, they may ask for some cash.
Angela Okune 1:48:20
Maybe they should have that cash.I don't know, I think Yeah, I think that's it. I was also asked me is the benefit for research. I mean, many people who participate get money, and maybe that pushes them another day. I don't know. Like, is that all that research is? But from what I've heard from you guys, you think that there's still something that can be saved from research, it's not just about money,
Unknown Female Speaker 1:48:42
we have some researchers who come, they pay you before they start asking questions. And then there's this other one with just asking you question and he has like 50 or 58 questions. So getting the actually information.
Male Respondent 1:48:57
And in an article where they say that today, there are many people doing their thing, doing research for people who are studying in US, yes, the Kenyans are doing the research for them, which means, like, I can't do it for you because I'm in Kenya. Then you pay me.
Angela Okune 1:49:21
Yeah, yeah.Yeah.Well, thank you all so much for your time, and your opinions and your insights.I know we're over time, we're past time. But this is, in fact, kind of the final part because as I mentioned, I think you're you're missing. But I'm trying to also do things a bit differently. So actually, I built a platform where data can be shared. And you know, the research I'm doing is qualitative. It's not necessarily numerical or quantitative in the same way that I think many of you may be are used to. It's not like the the government open data portal. Have you guys seen that one?. But this is now for like ethnographic or qualitative materials. So for the people, and I was mentioning most of the interviews and things I've doing with researchers, and and so this is the informed consent that I've kind of supplemented with a form asking for how you want the data to be shared. So we started with agreeing to be audio taped, and I'm sorry, you you jumped in and we had already all agreed. So you, you're forced to agree to be audio taped. Sorry. But but the rest are now about asking how much you guys are willing to share this conversation we've just had. And if you would want to be identified and be made famous, and build your prestige, or maybe be anonymized. So that's now you know, your name is removed. It shouldn't have anything related to to anything. So so this is something I've been doing with each person that I interview and actually almost all of them have And one has refused to have the information shared, but the rest of them have agreed. So I'm also on the process, I have to type it up, none of them wanted the audio, so we can refuse to have the audio up. And basically, we can have the typed version, because that will now you know, your voice is not attached. So it's harder for someone to even trace. And so I'm doing that and that data will be put on this site. And it has licenses so that anyone can reuse it. So it's not just my data as Angela, but actually you could go down if you're doing a research on research, where if you want to save someone, you can actually look and you can use that data yourself and you have the licenses because the person I did the interview with said it's okay. And I've also put it up there. So I'm trying to build in processes. So that at least we're moving a bit forward so that we're not just yeah, so I'm trying to also experiment with with how we do so I wanted to ask you guys this is different because we are a group. So I think we need to be anonymous because one person can say they want to be have it shared and others they know so But I don't want to put pressure. Because I don't want everyone to feel like I have to agree because I can't refuse, you know, so so maybe I can just hand it out. It's a bit conc still, so we can walk through it. But you know, what has been discussed? So you have a sense of how controversial it is, and how not controversial I don't think in my mind, it still wasn't so, so much, but maybe we can remove if someone feels like the mention of Shofco. They wouldn't want that to be named, we can remove. So we can even remove like Shofco we can remove certain things that were said. If you feel like that's important. So the first one, we all agreed, yes. So maybe we can.
Male Respondent 1:52:44
I agreed you
Angela Okune 1:52:46
were just looking at this last page, but you'll go home with this. I know sorry. It's a conc documents from the university, but we had kind of talked through it before. Yeah, but we're just looking at the page I just had to do because that's where we'll make our choices. So the first one is agreed to be audio taped, we've already audio taped. The next one. And this is what I use with like the research organizations because I want to see how they're already archiving their data. So But for us, we can say not applicable. And then this other question is about excerpts from the interview quoted, a pen, and there's another pen here. Agreeing so everyone can mark their preferences, and then I'll look at them. And then I'll see if we're in agreement or not, because I didn't want you guys to feel pressure to talk about it out loud. You can have questions if you want, but Yeah, I agree to have excerpts quoted. So that's now like, direct things that you said. And then the other one is to have them quoted in an oral presentation.So if someone says this is what people are concerned about.
Male Respondent 1:54:02
Access to this material is restricted?
Angela Okune 1:54:03
,Oh no, that's not applicable, any in a written report, that's that one after that. The one after that is now oral presentation.And then the one after that is this audio tape, the audio recording, so if you agreed to have it posted on a website and then the other one is I agreed to have it on a website for students, artists, journalists and others interested in the material to use in their own projects. So this is now allowing people to reuse it to the first one might just be to post it but they can reuse it. Then the other one is they can use it for their own purposes. But I think if we use that one, you can see it's noncommercial. So it wouldn't be for making profit. So there's a license where you can say you can use this, but only as long as you're not making profit. And then the one after that is allowing it to be preserved for public use permanently. But and this is important, you can always ask for it to be removed. So even if you agree to these, you can just a message after you've seen it online and you say, Aii No! you can ask for it to be removed anytime. And then as I said, you can ask that your name not be attached. So basically, you can be anonymized. So there's a line there at the bottom here. If you want your name to be anonymized, you just initial there in a way that can't be read. I don't know if you guys are if we are together.
Male Respondent 1:55:50
Can you elaborate in these, including notes and record reserved for public use permanently, you know.
Angela Okune 1:55:59
So this is records of the interview, so maybe any notes, jottings. And and I think again, this is public use. So actually this one, I think is it could be used for commercial purposes, because public use doesn't stipulate specifically for what? So this is now open for anyone to use for any reason. Yeah.Because these are the different license options. Yeah.Okay, so we're together now I think we're at the anonymization, so that this is now just if you want to be named, so for some people, they might want to actually be named, but if you don't want to be named, then you just so then it would just be like participant, whatever random number like.So you can you can be anonymous, so if you want to be anonymous, just initial this line here.Yeah, if not, then that's fine. And if you want a specific name because I don't think I got your second names, so if you want your names to be mentioned you let me know. Yeah, and in the future, you can ask for any of it to be removed, you can be taken out of everything. You can have it destroyed. But you can't retract anything that's already in print or in press.
De De De De De.
And if you have anything else you want mentioned, you can list them here. Yeah
Male Respondent 1:57:32
So what's subject name (inaudible)
Angela Okune 1:57:34
.So if you want to be anonymous, don't print your name. Please just leave it blank and you can just sign in a way that I can't tell exactly just fine broadly, but if you want to be named then printed name is just your your all your names.Printed name is now your name printed, written and then the signature is your signature.
Unknown Female Speaker 1:57:54
My name Yeah,
Angela Okune 1:57:55
Male Respondent 1:58:08
Printed name is?
Angela Okune 1:58:10
printed name is just your name, but if you want to be anonymous, just leave it blank.
I'm gonna write them. So maybe you can have them back and I can see if we, how we how we answered. Then I'll let you know how but I can at least share it. Let's see. Let's do it.I'll give it back to you so that you can let me know.Let me leave you there as MK-KM-S-08. I just want to say before I promise to you guys, yes. Okay.Confirmed.
Male Respondent 1:58:17
I want to get consulted that's why am writing my name.
You ticked yes? (inaudible)
Angela Okune 1:59:19
Okay, so I will share this back with you guys then it looks like everyone is almost in agreement. So at least I can promise. So I'll send you I'm gonna be working let me get this but let me sign them and give them back to you.It's a lot of paperwork.But you see, it's good because then at least Don't you feel a bit more consulted or how do you feel about this? It's too much. What do you guys think? Like cuz, you know, a lot of people are also asking how they should do research better. I don't think this is perfect. It's weak. It's very conc. But I think it's important to ask someone about how they want their their photo to be shared how they want, do they want it to be made money off. These are the things we've been talking about, isn't it? And I think it's good that you tell the researcher exactly how you feel. If they if they don't take it into account, then now you have grounds for telling them We! Si I told you and you didn't listen,
Male Respondent 2:00:12
I actually like this idea of signing at the end rather than those who insist, sign before we start, and then you end up saying things that you didn't. (inaudible)
Angela Okune 2:00:37
so do you think this is something that (inaudible) let me borrow someone else's pen.
Male Respondent 2:00:46
This is more consultative.
Angela Okune 2:00:48
It is I hope.
And then I also so I need to make copies for you guys. So I want to keep one and then you go home with one. And then I also want to invite you on the 12th of November that's in like two weeks. I'm having an event at in CBD at Macmillan, the second oldest library in Nairobi. And I'm bringing together librarians, archivists, open data people and researchers to come together because many of them don't talk to each other. And to think about how should we be archiving data? How should we be protecting this data and, and taking care of it? How should data be be channeled back into communities? So we have three panels. One is on research kind of skills, like how are we training researchers around data? The other is on different kinds of research outputs, because sometimes reports are not the only form that someone wants to read about the research, isn't it? So how else can we give an even the data you see the data for me I really am still not haven't given up on data because I think it allows other people to use it. A report is someone's opinion already. They've already put all their insights they've already analyzed, and so it's a bit harder to to work together. on something, but data you and I can look at a data set together. And we can say, I think it's around this. And you can say, No, it's not that you can see clearly, this was asked in this way. So it's not around this, you know, and so there's more room for us to now negotiate. So for me I am someone can use it for their school project, someone else can use it for something else. So it gives more opportunities, instead of asking the same questions that the people again and again, let's not look at the data that we collected, and see how we can use it for different purposes. So I see that also as helping with research fatigue, people being tired of answering questions, if we can look at the data together, can we not come up with different ways of also interpreting it? So that's the second panel on the third panel is now on the politics of data where it's actually sitting these things now at the technical level, is the data in the US or is the data in Europe? You guys know the issues of biometrics data Huduma number where you know, like this, those kinds of issues that with the server, where's the data? Is it the French company who's sitting on that data and now they're selling it back to us here? You know, it's like those There's another that's the third panel. So it's from eight. Eight is registration nine is the event starting until three on the 12th. So if you're interested you can share with me or email and I can send you the details. I don't know. Yeah, there's no, again, no pressure. But yeah. Let me circulate this.Then I think MK-KM-S-08 will follow up. I think with everyone. Yeah, we had discussed him just reimbursing transport costs and thanking you for your time. I know that time is valuable.Yep. You You're not anonymous. For your name to be mentioned, if you will be ok. Ok. Let me sign a copy
Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Trevas Matathia.
AO: This discussion took place at a Social Hall in Kibera, Nairobi, Kenya on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 from 2 PM - 4 PM. I offered to run the discussion in Swahili and prior to the start of the discussion, much of the informal conversation was in sheng/swahili but as soon as the discussion began, all switched to English. The discussion was guided with this set of questions that I had prepared in advance. I did not follow the guide strictly. Refreshments of queen cake muffins and sodas were provided on the table in front of everyone and we were seated around the rectangular table. There were some noises from the children playing in the yard outside of the hall which made some of the audio recording inaudible. The first pass of the audio recording was done in Otter.AI and then cleaned by a member of the research team, Trevas Matathia. I then went back through and made final edits and cleaning of the transcript. Two of the six participants wished to remain anonymous. The remaining participants elected to be named and I double checked with each of them to confirm.